Question:

Cris, With the proper acupuncture, herbs (both linament & internal), and massage, I believe it is possible to greatly reduce the severity of your condition.  It is not possible to know just how much it will help, but I do believe that you would get far more than just "pain blocking". The treatments should help resolve some or all of the underlying condition. Do try the Salon Pas and Yunnan Pai Yao plasters.

Response:

Poor Simple Minded Kaalga, During these sessions, stainless steel filliform needles are inserted into the patient.  This has been asked and answered several times.  It is quite sad (but not surprsing) that with a degree in English, you have so much trouble with the basic definition of acupuncture. Next thing, you’ll be wanting somebody to explain the word "didactic" to you…..again. EXACTLY what is happening during any of these sessions? anyone have a clue yet?

Response:

Here is a brief outline: Sorry, I missed out the paragraphs which relate the following to acupuncture: now added below:

thank you for this information. (it’ll take me a while to get through it, i am just a layperson, after all) at least you seem to be focusing on the most scientific theory (to date). tell me, if you are an acupuncturist, do You limit your practice to pain relief? also, what do you make of the suggestion that needles aren’t really even necessary; that electrostimulus—or even a ‘pinch’ work just as effectively? i am sure you are familiar with the work of drs chen and han: Chen, X.-H., S.-F. Guo, C.-G. Chang, and J.-S. Han. 1994. Optimal conditions for eliciting maximal electroacupuncture analgesia with dense-and-disperse mode stimulation. American Journal of Acupuncture 22(1) there are plenty of relevant questions raised in the following article: http://www.csicop.org/si/9607/china.html To save your world you asked this man to die; Would this man, could he see you now, ask why? W. H. Auden (1907 – 1973), Epitaph for an Unknown Soldier A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends. Baltasar Gracian Talk low, talk slow, and don’t say too much. John Wayne

Response:

I agree with what you heard that the first and section could increase the pain, and improvement could follow, what i think you should do is to go back your acupuncturist and explain to him how you felt after your first session. Make sure the gentleman has a good repetition with his techniques, try to speak with some of his client with similar condition who has been with him for more than six sessions

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all. I have had sever neck pain for over 6 months now, and traditional medicine has done nothing for me.  So I have decided to give acupuncture a try today. The session consisted of 10 needles in my neck, which where exposed to a red lamp for 20 minutes (for heating purposes).  After this, the chinese folk gave me a 5 minute deep tissue massage. It has now been over an hour after the session, and I am quite hurt all over the neck.  I dare say, in worse condition than I entered. Is this normal? Maybe the massage made me hurt?  I don’t know what to think.  I don’t even know if I should go back for further treatment. I think I read somewhere that in SOME cases, acupuncture slightly discomforts for the first session or two, and then the healing begins to make effect in a progressive fashion. Any tips are highly appreciated.  I am new to all this. -Cristian — Remove SPAMSUX from my email!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Here is a brief outline: Sorry, I missed out the paragraphs which relate the following to acupuncture: now added below: thank you for this information. (it’ll take me a while to get through it, i am just a layperson, after all) at least you seem to be focusing on the most scientific theory (to date). tell me, if you are an acupuncturist, do You limit your practice to pain relief?

I practised modern acupuncture for over 20 years but nowadays I restrict myself to teaching acupuncture to health professionals. My textbook on acupuncture is due to be published by Butterworth-Heinemann later this year. Acupuncture is mainly but not exclusively useful for pain relief. It does work for certain other disorders: notably, in my experience, ulcerative colitis (rather inexplicably). It helps a *very small* number of patients with bronchial asthma (perhaps 10 per cent) and one or two other miscellaneous things. also, what do you make of the suggestion that needles aren’t really even necessary; that electrostimulus—or even a ‘pinch’ work just as effectively?

The needle is a stimulus to the nervous system. Other stimuli, such as a pinch, or so-called acupressure, will also work to some extent, though they are less effective. Electrostimulation is a more complex question, but in outline we can distinguish between slow stimulation (2-10 Hz), which is acupuncture-like, and fast stimulation (20-150 Hz), which is TENS-like (TENS = transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation). TENS is useful for pain relief but generally only while the stimulus is actually being applied. It’s best to think of acupuncture, not as some strange esoteric treatment involving all kinds of unknown forces, but as overlapping in practice with other physical treatments such as physiotherapy, manipulation (osteopathy and chiropractic), and even simple massage. I think they all work in much the sme way, via much the same mechanisms. i am sure you are familiar with the work of drs chen and han: Chen, X.-H., S.-F. Guo, C.-G. Chang, and J.-S. Han. 1994. Optimal conditions for eliciting maximal electroacupuncture analgesia with dense-and-disperse mode stimulation. American Journal of Acupuncture 22(1)

I don’t use electrical stimulation myself; I’ve seldom found it either necessary or useful. Anthony — Anthony Campbell – running Linux Debian (Windows-free zone) Over 100 book reviews: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/ Skeptical essays: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/freethinker/ "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably absurd. It is the chief occupation of mankind." – H.L. Mencken

Response:

Anthony, For severe pain like that, it IS proper to leave the needles in for much longer than a few minutes.   20 minutes is about right.  However, before the needles go in, the patient should (could?) have received the following:  Application of a muscle relaxing linament prior to the massage, 10-15 minutes of massage, then the needles.

I know it is customary to leave the needles in for 20 minutes in the traditional treatment, but I disagree with it. If the needles are not stimulated at all during this time, either manually or electrically, nothing much will probably happen; but if manual or electrical stimulation are given you may get bad aggravations, as in this case. Surprising though it may seem, you can get a full therapeutic effect with very brief insertion. This is probably because the nervous system adapts very quickly to a new stimulus and ceases to register it. [snip] — Anthony Campbell – running Linux Debian (Windows-free zone) Over 100 book reviews: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/ Skeptical essays: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/freethinker/ "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably absurd. It is the chief occupation of mankind." – H.L. Mencken

Response:

You have probably been over-treated. As a general rule, one should insert only 2-4 needles on a first occasion, for less than 2 min – sometimes for only a few seconds. and this "rule" stands for each illness being "treated" by acupuncture??

Yes. The "deep massage" would probably make matters worse. why is that?

Because it is a strong stimulus in itself, and is therefore more or less an equivalent to acupuncture/ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The commonest mistake in acupuncture is to over-treat. as in visit after visit is needed for a ‘cure’? It’s almost impossible to do too little. oh, i’m sure of that. Unfortunately the traditional approach, at least as generally practised in the West, is to put in large numbers of needles for 20 minutes. EXACTLY what is happening during any of these sessions? anyone have a clue yet? does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

– Anthony Campbell – running Linux Debian (Windows-free zone) Over 100 book reviews: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/ Skeptical essays: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/freethinker/ "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably absurd. It is the chief occupation of mankind." – H.L. Mencken

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thanks for your answers. but you must not have seen this one?? EXACTLY what is happening during any of these sessions? anyone have a clue yet? Well, I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here, but if you mean: "What is the mechanism by which acupuncture produces pain relief?", the answer is that it’s possible to put forward a plausible story but there is much more work to be done. Here is a brief outline:

Sorry, I missed out the paragraphs which relate the following to acupuncture: now added below: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -According to the old model of pain perception, which goes back as far as Descartes for its ultimate inspiration, the nervous system is something like a telephone system. If you tread on a drawing pin, say, a pain impulse travels up the nerves from your foot to your spinal cord and thence to your brain, where in some wholly mysterious way it gives rise to a pain in consciousness. This model is a passive one, in that transmission of the painful stimulus is supposed to happen automatically provided the nervous pathways are intact. Melzack and Wall (1992) have pointed out that there are serious difficulties with this scheme. Sometimes a severe injury causes little pain, or a relatively trivial injury may cause agonizing pain.  Again, pain may persist for months or years after the original injury has healed completely. We therefore need a more sophisticated and more dynamic view of how the pain mechanism works. Receptor Encoding Some sensory afferent neurons respond to specific weak stimuli such as touch and vibration, while others, called nociceptors, respond only to strong stimuli. The low-threshold neurons mostly have heavily myelinated, fast-conducting, A-beta axons, while all the nociceptors have slowly conducting neurons with thin or no myelin (A-delta and C axons respectively). It is unlikely that there is a specific pain pathway in the CNS. Most neurons in the spinal cord and brain stem that receive synaptic input from nociceptive afferents also receive low-threshold input and are therefore known as wide-dynamic-range (WDR) neurons. This raises a question: how can WDR neurons transmit both touch and pain information? One suggestion is that touch is felt when only a few WDR neurons fire slowly, and pain is felt when many fire rapidly. Modulation of Noxious Stimulation Modulation of pain occurs at a number of levels. Peripheral sensitization  occurs in response to injury, as chemical mediators are released by the inflammatory process. Modulation also occurs at the level of the spinal cord, as suggested in the gate theory of pain put forward in 1965 by R. Melzack  and P.D. Wall. This postulates the inhibition of nociceptive primary afferents by spinal interneurons, which are activated by low-threshold A-beta$ afferents. It was originally suggested that A-delta afferents have the opposite effect (`opening’ the gates), though there is dispute about this. However, in spite of argument about the details, the fundamental concept of signal modulation in pain perception introduced by Melzack and Wall is now fully accepted. One way in which the theory has been extended is by the concept of descending inhibition. The periaqueductal grey matter (PAG) grey in the midbrain is a major centre for descending inhibitory control. Impulses descend from the PAG to the nucleus raphe magnus (NRM) in the medulla, where cells containing serotonin and noradrenaline are activated; they send impulses downwards to inhibit the response of dorsal horn WDR cells to noxious inputs. Morphine and similar narcotics appear to act mainly on this system. Cortical and limbic system inputs also act here and may explain stress-induced analgesia, for example in soldiers injured in battle, and also placebo analgesia. The reticular system, a network of large neurons found in the core of the hindbrain and indeed throughout the entire neuraxis, receives inputs from many sources including nociceptors. The descending pain-inhibiting neurons of the NRM are part of this system, and therefore descending inhibition can be turned on by ascending noxious drive. This is the mechanism of diffuse noxious inhibitory control (DNIC). There are also inhibitory networks in the spinal cord which cause regional inhibition of WDR neurons in response to pinching: a phenomenon called propriospinal inhibition. Central sensitization also occurs. In addition to the localized peripheral sensitization that occurs in response to injury, causing primary hyperalgesia, tenderness spreads to surrounding skin where there is no inflammation; this is secondary hyperalgesia.  This is due to A-beta (touch) afferents. Once triggered, it persists for tens of minutes before fading, but continuous noxious input and perhaps nerve injury can maintain it indefinitely. Thus, A-beta input is concerned with pain as well as with touch and vibration.

 Acupuncture Analgesia  Acupuncture can probably best be thought of as a form of peripheral  stimulation that is capable of modifying or resetting the nervous  system. All the manual therapies (acupuncture, physiotherapy,  manipulation, massage, etc.) probably act in much the same way. The  following account is based on Bowsher D, `Mechanisms of Acupuncture’,  in Medical Acupuncture (1998), edited by Filshie J and White A.  (Churchill Livingstone, Edinburgh).  Acupuncture stimulates mainly the A-delta (small myelinated) fibres,  which are responsible for pinprick sensation and also feelings of cold  and pressure. Acupuncture analgesia may be produced either within a  spinal segment (segmental) or from outside the relevant segment  (heterosegmental), and the mechanisms are different.  Spinal segmental analgesia is reversed or blocked by naloxone and it  therefore seems that this kind of analgesia is due to endogenous  opioids. In the normal way, pain impulses arrive via C fibres and reach  the substantia gelatinosa in the superficial dorsal horn of the spinal  cord. Here they generate further impulses that pass to, or perhaps  inhibit, WDR (wide dynamic range) cells whose axons pass up the spinal  cord in the spinoreticular tract; impulses from these cells reach the  brain and are interpreted as painful.  When acupuncture is performed, information coming via A$delta$ fibres  passes up the spinothalamic tract and eventually is appreciated as  awareness of pinprick. However, it is also transmitted in the spinal  cord to stalked cells that release enkephalin and inhibit substantia  gelatinosa cells, which block pain transmission.  Analgesia which does not depend on segmental mechanisms works in a  different way. Two main processes seem to be involved. One acts via  serotonin and is antagonized by methysergide; the route for this system  is via the peri-aqueductal grey and the nucleus raphe magnus in the  brain stem. The other mechanism depends on noradrenaline but there is  some uncertainty about the structures involved; the locus coeruleus or  other lower brainstem cell groups whose axons project to the spinal  cord may be involved.  Both the above systems may be ultimately controlled from the prefrontal  cortex and the arcuate nucleus of the hypothalamus.  A third non-segmental mechanism also is implicated in acupuncture  analgesia; this is diffuse noxious inhibitory control (DNIC). This is  another opioid-dependent mechanism, acting on “wide dynamic range”  neurons in the spinal cord which transmit pain impulses to the brain.  Information generated by stimulation of A$delta$ fibres goes to the  subnucleus reticularis dorsalis, from which cells project downwards  through the dorsolateral funiculus to the dorsal horn of the spinal  cord at all levels.  To summarize, segmental acupuncture acts via an endogenous opioid  mechanism. Heterosegmental acupuncture acts via several different  mechanisms: (a) an serotoninergic mechanism; (b) a noradrenergic  mechanism; (c) DNIC, which is mediated by opioids. (For a discussion of the role of the limbic system in acupuncture, see my paper: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/acupuncture/articles/limbic.html

Anthony — Anthony Campbell – running Linux Debian (Windows-free zone) Over 100 book reviews: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/ Skeptical essays: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/freethinker/ "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably absurd. It is the chief occupation of mankind." – H.L. Mencken

Response:

thanks for your answers. but you must not have seen this one?? EXACTLY what is happening during any of these sessions? anyone have a clue yet?

Well, I’m not quite sure what you’re asking here, but if you mean: "What is the mechanism by which acupuncture produces pain relief?", the answer is that it’s possible to put forward a plausible story but there is much more work to be done. Here is a brief outline: According to the old model of pain perception, which goes back as far as Descartes for its ultimate inspiration, the nervous system is something like a telephone system. If you tread on a drawing pin, say, a pain impulse travels up the nerves from your foot to your spinal cord and thence to your brain, where in some wholly mysterious way it gives rise to a pain in consciousness. This model is a passive one, in that transmission of the painful stimulus is supposed to happen automatically provided the nervous pathways are intact. Melzack and Wall (1992) have pointed out that there are serious difficulties with this scheme. Sometimes a severe injury causes little pain, or a relatively trivial injury may cause agonizing pain.  Again, pain may persist for months or years after the original injury has healed completely. We therefore need a more sophisticated and more dynamic view of how the pain mechanism works. Receptor Encoding Some sensory afferent neurons respond to specific weak stimuli such as touch and vibration, while others, called nociceptors, respond only to strong stimuli. The low-threshold neurons mostly have heavily myelinated, fast-conducting, A$beta$ axons, while all the nociceptors have slowly conducting neurons with thin or no myelin (A$delta$ and C axons respectively). It is unlikely that there is a specific pain pathway in the CNS. Most neurons in the spinal cord and brain stem that receive synaptic input from nociceptive afferents also receive low-threshold input and are therefore known as wide-dynamic-range (WDR) neurons. This raises a question: how can WDR neurons transmit both touch and pain information? One suggestion is that touch is felt when only a few WDR neurons fire slowly, and pain is felt when many fire rapidly. Modulation of Noxious Stimulation Modulation of pain occurs at a number of levels. Peripheral sensitization  occurs in response to injury, as chemical mediators are released by the inflammatory process. Modulation also occurs at the level of the spinal cord, as suggested in the gate theory of pain put forward in 1965 by R. Melzack  and P.D. Wall. This postulates the inhibition of nociceptive primary afferents by spinal interneurons, which are activated by low-threshold A-beta$ afferents. It was originally suggested that A-delta afferents have the opposite effect (`opening’ the gates, though there is dispute about this. However, in spite of argument about the details, the fundamental concept of signal modulation in pain perception introduced by Melzack and Wall is now fully accepted. One way in which the theory has been extended is by the concept of descending inhibition. The periaqueductal grey matter (PAG) grey (PAG)} in the midbrain is a major centre for descending inhibitory control. Impulses descend from the PAG to the nucleus raphe magnus (NRM) in the medulla, where cells containing serotonin and noradrenaline are activated; they send impulses downwards to inhibit the response of dorsal horn WDR cells to noxious inputs. Morphine and similar narcotics appear to act mainly on this system. Cortical and limbic system inputs also act here and may explain stress-induced analgesia, for example in soldiers injured in battle, and also placebo analgesia. The reticular system, a network of large neurons found in the core of the hindbrain and indeed throughout the entire neuraxis, receives inputs from many sources including nociceptors. The descending pain-inhibiting neurons of the NRM are part of this system, and therefore descending inhibition can be turned on by ascending noxious drive. This is the mechanism of diffuse noxious inhibitory control (DNIC). There are also inhibitory networks in the spinal cord which cause regional inhibition of WDR neurons in response to pinching: a phenomenon called propriospinal inhibition. Central sensitization also occurs. In addition to the localized peripheral sensitization that occurs in response to injury, causing primary hyperalgesia, tenderness spreads to surrounding skin where there is no inflammation; this is secondary hyperalgesia.  This is due to A-beta (touch) afferents. Once triggered, it persists for tens of minutes before fading, but continuous noxious input and perhaps nerve injury can maintain it indefinitely. Thus, A-beta input is concerned with pain as well as with touch and vibration. (For a discussion of the role of the limbic system in acupuncture, see my paper: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/acupuncture/articles/limbic.html Anthony — Anthony Campbell – running Linux Debian (Windows-free zone) Over 100 book reviews: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/ Skeptical essays: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/freethinker/ "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably absurd. It is the chief occupation of mankind." – H.L. Mencken

Response:

thanks for your answers. but you must not have seen this one?? EXACTLY what is happening during any of these sessions? anyone have a clue yet?

To save your world you asked this man to die; Would this man, could he see you now, ask why? W. H. Auden (1907 – 1973), Epitaph for an Unknown Soldier A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends. Baltasar Gracian Talk low, talk slow, and don’t say too much. John Wayne

Response:

Cris didn’t mention seeing a chiro in his post. Perhaps that was in his email communications with you. I was wondering what kind of diagnostic tests were performed. X-rays? MRIs? If they haven’t been done yet, perhaps they should be. ccc

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cris, Get a bottle of Zheng Gu Shui from a chinese grocery store or health food store.    Also, Yunnan Bai Yao plasters (stick on bandages) are great for this type of pain.  If you can’t find Yunnan Bai Yao, many places have SalonPas bandages (aspirin based) which are also useful. As for a Chiropractor, if you have had 6 treatments without some good results, you have had at least 4 treatments too many.  Drop the chiropractor, he’s the only one benefiting from your visits. If your condition doesn’t improve soon, try a different acupuncturist. In the mean time, a good massage therapist may be helpful.

Response:

Yes, i did mention the chiro.  I have had MRI, CT scans, Xrays, and bonescans. Yikes.  No more test to be done, I think.  :() I will keep on going to the chiro, but I won’t let him work on my neck anymore.  Only on my back.  I think neck is too risky, specially in my condition.  Also, the chiro set me up with a device that restores my neck curve.  I have an awfully straight neck, which chiro is convinced is the casue of my pain.  I think this is true… i have a lot of unusual cracking and popping…  it feels like avery vertebrae is out of place, no doubt. I really don’t know mych about Acupuncture.  My pain seems to be coming from the bone itself mainly, and somehow extends to ligaments and muscles because of the stress I am causing myslef (tightening neck due to pain, and constantly moving head/neck to relieve pain).  I think the accupuncture should help to get my own boday to heal myself a little quicker, or at least that is my uderstanding.  Or should it only act as a pain-blocker? Andrew, any comments? Thanks so much, Cris – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Cris didn’t mention seeing a chiro in his post. Perhaps that was in his email communications with you. I was wondering what kind of diagnostic tests were performed. X-rays? MRIs? If they haven’t been done yet, perhaps they should be. ccc Cris, Get a bottle of Zheng Gu Shui from a chinese grocery store or health food store.    Also, Yunnan Bai Yao plasters (stick on bandages) are great for this type of pain.  If you can’t find Yunnan Bai Yao, many places have SalonPas bandages (aspirin based) which are also useful. As for a Chiropractor, if you have had 6 treatments without some good results, you have had at least 4 treatments too many.  Drop the chiropractor, he’s the only one benefiting from your visits. If your condition doesn’t improve soon, try a different acupuncturist. In the mean time, a good massage therapist may be helpful.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all. I have had sever neck pain for over 6 months now, and traditional medicine has done nothing for me.  So I have decided to give acupuncture a try today. The session consisted of 10 needles in my neck, which where exposed to a red lamp for 20 minutes (for heating purposes).  After this, the chinese folk gave me a 5 minute deep tissue massage.   It has now been over an hour after the session, and I am quite hurt all over the neck.  I dare say, in worse condition than I entered. Is this normal? Maybe the massage made me hurt?  I don’t know what to think.  I don’t even know if I should go back for further treatment. I think I read somewhere that in SOME cases, acupuncture slightly discomforts for the first session or two, and then the healing begins to make effect in a progressive fashion. Any tips are highly appreciated.  I am new to all this.

You have probably been over-treated. As a general rule, one should insert only 2-4 needles on a first occasion, for less than 2 min – sometimes for only a few seconds. The "deep massage" would probably make matters worse. The commonest mistake in acupuncture is to over-treat. It’s almost impossible to do too little. Unfortunately the traditional approach, at least as generally practised in the West, is to put in large numbers of needles for 20 minutes. — Anthony Campbell – running Linux Debian (Windows-free zone) Over 100 book reviews: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/bookreviews/ Skeptical essays: http://www.cix.co.uk/~acampbell/freethinker/ "The most common of all follies is to believe passionately in the palpably absurd. It is the chief occupation of mankind." – H.L. Mencken

Response:

You have probably been over-treated. As a general rule, one should insert only 2-4 needles on a first occasion, for less than 2 min – sometimes for only a few seconds.

and this "rule" stands for each illness being "treated" by acupuncture?? The "deep massage" would probably make matters worse.

why is that? The commonest mistake in acupuncture is to over-treat.

as in visit after visit is needed for a ‘cure’? It’s almost impossible to do too little.

oh, i’m sure of that. Unfortunately the traditional approach, at least as generally practised in the West, is to put in large numbers of needles for 20 minutes.

EXACTLY what is happening during any of these sessions? anyone have a clue yet? does acupuncture really work? http://www.straightdope.com/columns/000324.html Some people think only intellect counts: knowing how to solve problems, knowing how to get by, knowing how to identify an advantage and seize it. But the functions of intellect are insufficient without courage, love, friendship, compassion and empathy. Dean Koontz

Response:

Anthony, For severe pain like that, it IS proper to leave the needles in for much longer than a few minutes.   20 minutes is about right.  However, before the needles go in, the patient should (could?) have received the following:  Application of a muscle relaxing linament prior to the massage, 10-15 minutes of massage, then the needles. At least, that is how I would have (likely) approached this case.  Of course, it would help greatly to examine the patient!   I think the selection of points was VERY poor, too.   They should have done distal points, not just local points.   Sounds like a very amatuerish treatment, from what I can gather. I recommend that he try another acupuncturist, avoid the chiropractor and regularly visit a massage therapist.  If that doesn’t work, he should take Cell Salts and Urine therapy… )))))

Response:

Cris, Get a bottle of Zheng Gu Shui from a chinese grocery store or health food store.    Also, Yunnan Bai Yao plasters (stick on bandages) are great for this type of pain.  If you can’t find Yunnan Bai Yao, many places have SalonPas bandages (aspirin based) which are also useful. As for a Chiropractor, if you have had 6 treatments without some good results, you have had at least 4 treatments too many.  Drop the chiropractor, he’s the only one benefiting from your visits. If your condition doesn’t improve soon, try a different acupuncturist. In the mean time, a good massage therapist may be helpful.

Response:

Jan, Don’t you EVER get tired of being wrong?  Obviously not, or you’d have left the "building" (NG) by now.   Some of us have lives outside of usenet and can’t always read & reply to every post that catches our eye.   FWIW, I have responded to Cris. Besides, you do the lion’s share of the belittling on the group. I had hoped that Andrew might have a suggestion since this is his profession, he has time for his usual degrading posts, but ignored this Jan

Response:

Hi all. I have had sever neck pain for over 6 months now, and traditional medicine has done nothing for me.  So I have decided to give acupuncture a try today. The session consisted of 10 needles in my neck, which where exposed to a red lamp for 20 minutes (for heating purposes).  After this, the chinese folk gave me a 5 minute deep tissue massage.   It has now been over an hour after the session, and I am quite hurt all over the neck.  I dare say, in worse condition than I entered. Is this normal? Maybe the massage made me hurt?  I don’t know what to think.  I don’t even know if I should go back for further treatment. I think I read somewhere that in SOME cases, acupuncture slightly discomforts for the first session or two, and then the healing begins to make effect in a progressive fashion. Any tips are highly appreciated.  I am new to all this. -Cristian — Remove SPAMSUX from my email!

Response:

Did they come up with some diagnosis or an explanation for your pain. If not then that is the first place to start. Without a diagnosis it is difficult to prescribe an appropriate treatment. Did this pain come on suddenly or was it gradual in onset??? Did you injure your neck in an accident??

I had a sports injury, with flexion of my neck (chin towards chest). This was 6 months ago, and the pain has gradually (yet steadily) increased on one side of my neck. I have seen over 8 doctros, some VERY VERY good ones, and they see no structural damage whatsoever.  In other words, nothing to get worried about. yeah, sure, but the pain is there, and oh god it is disabling.  I had to quit my job 2 weeks ago because of this, and get 100% dedicated to cure my problem. Did you tell the acupuncturist about your problem?? If so, what did he/she say?? If not, I would recommend talking to him/her.

yes, I did.  He said he thinks it must be ligament/muscular/soft tissue damage.  he believes he can help me heal.   I am also seeing a chiropractor.  6 sessions so far.  No real progress yet. Thanks — Remove SPAMSUX from my email!

Response:

I had hoped that Andrew might have a suggestion since this is his profession, he has time for his usual degrading posts, but ignored this Jan   Did they come up with some diagnosis or an explanation for your pain. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If not then that is the first place to start. Without a diagnosis it is difficult to prescribe an appropriate treatment. Did this pain come on suddenly or was it gradual in onset??? Did you injure your neck in an accident?? I had a sports injury, with flexion of my neck (chin towards chest). This was 6 months ago, and the pain has gradually (yet steadily) increased on one side of my neck. I have seen over 8 doctros, some VERY VERY good ones, and they see no structural damage whatsoever.  In other words, nothing to get worried about. yeah, sure, but the pain is there, and oh god it is disabling.  I had to quit my job 2 weeks ago because of this, and get 100% dedicated to cure my problem. Did you tell the acupuncturist about your problem?? If so, what did he/she say?? If not, I would recommend talking to him/her. yes, I did.  He said he thinks it must be ligament/muscular/soft tissue damage.  he believes he can help me heal.   I am also seeing a chiropractor.  6 sessions so far.  No real progress yet. Thanks — Remove SPAMSUX from my email!

Response:

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