Question:

The body is a self-healing mechanism.  Just look at animals in nature.  

AU  - Putkonen P ; Kaaya EE ; Bottiger D ; Li SL ; Nilsson C ;       Biberfeld P ; Biberfeld G TI  - Clinical features and predictive markers of disease progression       in cynomolgus monkeys experimentally infected with simian       immunodeficiency virus. AB  - OBJECTIVE: To study the pathogenicity of simian immunodeficiency       virus (SIVsm) in cynomolgus monkeys in order to establish an       animal model for human AIDS. METHODS: Thirty-three cynomolgus       monkeys were monitored for more than 2 years following       experimental infection with SIVsm. RESULTS: All the macaques       became SIV-infected, as demonstrated by virus recovery from       peripheral blood lymphocytes and by the appearance of viral       antibodies. SIVsm was found to be pathogenic, killing 29 out of       the 33 monkeys (88%) within 26 months. Clinically, infected       monkeys developed lymphadenopathy, splenomegaly, diarrhoea,       weight loss, neurological symptoms and a remarkably high       incidence (39%) of malignant lymphomas. All lymphomas were       high-grade malignant and of B-cell origin. Disease progression       was associated with low CD4+ lymphocyte count, involution of       initially hyperplastic follicular B-cell areas in lymph nodes,       reappearance of viral antigen in serum, loss of anti-Gag       antibodies and development of systemic giant cell disease in 55%       of the monkeys. CONCLUSIONS: There are many similarities between       SIVsm-induced AIDS in cynomolgus monkeys and human AIDS with       regard to clinical, virological, immunological and pathological       manifestations. SO  - AIDS. 1992 Mar;6(3):257-63.

Response:

But nobody ever claimed it was a cure (like Lieb does of rebounders and raw foods) nor justifies unsafe sex by pretending HIV doesn’t exist. Yet for some reason, that doesn’t raise your ire. I call that dead cold hypocrisy.

Perhaps because none of these "remedies" that suppress symptoms, which are the body’s way of purging toxins, are cures.  Natural Hygiene does not believe in treating disease — which is the way the body takes care of itself.  The basic premise is that healthy acts always produce health and none of these medical or non-medical treatments — including dousing oneself with photo developer or drinking urine or Chinese herbs — is a healthy act. The body is a self-healing mechanism.  Just look at animals in nature.  The only food of value to our cells comes from live plant based foods.  Everything else, including all cooked foods and animal products, is toxic to the human body.  People have recovered from not just "AIDS," but cancer, CFS, asthma, and a slew of conditions that medical science likes to consider "incurable" (i.e. medicine can’t cure it).  The fact is people have recovered just from changing their diet.  People have also recovered just from rebound exercise without dietary changes.  When the two are combined the results are dramatically faster. Before you knock it, George, try it.  Or get your treatment action people to set up a study.   Edward Lieb Want to learn the greatest health "secret" of all? Check out my web page: http://members.aol.com/HelthBound or write for information by return e-mail.

Response:

As we approach another "full" lunar moment, Martooney Delooney’s Loon-acy is in full bloom, (again Projekt Miss Inform herself, Martin Delaney, aka

My name is Dave Thomson. Yours is Fraud Show. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If what I promote is fraudulent, how come, in almost 20 years none of my customers have complained? Cause dead people don’t talk? Good, George, very good. Now that it has taken you over a decade to grasp that fact, perhaps you might consider the quiet message that hides in the quilts of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who trusted their doctors who were quite insistent that AZT et al had something to do with health — but now see AZT monotherapy as dangerous because they didn’t know enough about it then, but guess what? They are equally sure today that the PI cocktails have something to do with health — and they have just as much "proof" now as they did with AZT then. Quite right, Fraud – hell, they even have MORE proof about the benefit of PI cocktails than the did about AZT monotherapy! "Proof?" Ha! Another Deloony Toon during a full moon, or "full Delunar event"! Except for the confession that the drug companies have many more stooges to pay off today than ever before. What happened to the good old days of ACTG016 when they only had to pay off a handful of buffoons while killing off a couple of dozen plalcebo-gulping fags who were gonna die anyway and, by God, were damned lucky to be in the trial in the first place? (A "blinded" trial? Surrrrreeee it was! Let’s see … who could be on A-Z-T?? Hmmm, here’s one … maybe I’ll give his real doc a call and get him to prescribe Bactrim <wink wink yeah Bactrim — the drug that has nuttin’ to do with preventing PCP <wink). [SEE ACTG016 report of 1989 for an eye-opener]

(ACTG016 observed 19 deaths in the placebo arm and only 1 in the AZT arm, for those just joining the ‘debate’) Perhaps you have forgotten our discussion on this ? You certainly want to keep bringing it up, and I’m indebted to you for the reference which makes a complete mockery of your assertion that Bactrim use influenced this study. Here’s the relevant extract from the "eye-opener", courtesy of Fraud Show : :Yarchoan R; Mitsuya H; Myers CE; Broder S. Clinical pharmacology of :3′-azido-2′,3′-dideoxythymidine (zidovudine) and related :dideoxynucleosides. New England Journal of Medicine, 1989 Sep 14, :321(11):726-38. : age 730: Suppressive prophylaxis for pneumocystis was not an option in :the protocol of the seven-month randomized trials, although a few :patients randomly distributed between the two arms received it. Also, 19 Do you see the word ‘randomly’ ? These words are not used loosely in NEJM. In this context, it means that it is improbable that PCP prophylaxis biased either group. The abstract continues… : f the 144 originally assigned to zidovudine received more than 6 seeks f such prophylaxis during the 52 weeks after their entry into the study Fischl M, Lehrman SN, Barry D: personal communication). Eliminating :these patients from the analysis does not affect the basic conclusion of :the trial. Subsequent studies have suggested that patients with AIDS who : See it? "Eliminating these patients from the analysis does not affect the basic conclusion of the trial." Quite clear. It’s talking about the basic conclusion that AZT offers a survival benefit (and has repeatedly been found to be between 1 and 2 years). The abstract continues to tell us that further research has established an even greater survival benefit with coadministration of PCP prophylaxis… : :receive zidovudine in conjunction with prophylactic therapy for :pneumocystis may have a lower mortality than those who receive :zidovudine alone.

Response:

snipped snottiness… Nope. More people have failed HAART than were reported to fail AZT at the 2 year mark of being the standard of care. A LOT MORE FAILURES!

These statements are unsupported. What data do you have? How do you define failure? Numbers or percentages? This is just a lot of hot air. Yes, the drug cocktails have problems. The benefits for most people with AIDS outweigh the risks. snip The fact is, the FDA in DC apologized for the way the district office handled the situation. Blah blah blah… instead of yapping about their "apology", why don’t you post that hilarious manic Chicken Little "the sky is falling" post that illustrates your deceptions, lies and megalomania so perfectly?

Your pointless characterizations aside, the response to the FDA District Office’s threatening later is still applicable. The issues remain the same–and I basically covered them in my last post. Clearly, the distributor of SPV-30 made claims about the herb’s ability to mitigate disease. Hey sleazebag! Don’t forget to mention to all the nice people that YOU were the author of the medical "claims" the distributor disseminated. What a nice scumbag you are.

More insults. But they do not mask the fact that once again you are inaccurate. Yes, I wrote an information sheet on SPV-30 several years ago. No, the FDA had no problem with that. Lots of information sheets have been written about all types of treatments (including DNCB) by many people. The FDA District Office objected to ads in POZ and other magazines that carried testimonials and otherwise made health claims that were unwarranted, although the people that did the ad felt they reflected the data from the open label trial. I did not have anything to do with writing that ad and I agreed with the FDA position that elements of it were inappropriate. snip Which is why the district office sent it’s threatening letter. Ohhhhh!!!! "Look! A threatening letter from the FDA!" "my God, what are we supposed to do? … hey, where’s Muffy? Has anyone seen Muffy??? Now let’s go find Muffy and see what we can do to make those meanies at the FDA apologize for causing Muffy to get scared and run off!"

Frod, it appears you are going around the bend further. I thought the ads were inappropriate anyway– But Dork — you were the daddy of those lovely cure du jour testimonials that arrived at your favorite habitat, POZ.

Aside from being nonsensical and typical of your diatribe, this is also completely untrue. and the distributor agreed to immediately drop the ads. Yeah, and you worked for them but there you were, Carter the big bad pantywaist ak-ti-vust – not the mentally disturbed Troglodyte who got them into hot water in the first place!

I did not work for the distributor of SPV-30 who put the ad out. I worked with DAAIR, a not-for-profit buyer’s club. They sell SPV-30 (as do other clubs) and many other things. To discuss effects on a disease process would be to call it a drug. Yet, for example, folic acid supplementation by expectant mothers clearly prevents neural tube defects in their children. Another manic fly-by.

Here is where you show your intellectual dishonesty. Rather than address any of the issues, you merely sneer. A cheap bullying tactic. Other examples abound of the ability of dietary supplements to (mostly) mitigate or (sometimes) cure disease. Here we go … wheeeeeee! Asystem must be developed that is rigorous which would permit companies to make such claims. Expanding into the universe of manic possibilities … wheeeee!

Do you have specific objections to what I wrote? There is nothing "manic" in these comments. They point to a significant problem. One that DNCB faces as well as any other non-patentable approach to treating disease. (snipped irrelevant ranting) No! SPV-30 is NOT "just like" ANYTHING Lieb advocated. Lieb didn’t push a KNOWN SUPPRESSOR OF THE BODY’S IL-2 PRODUCTION WITH OVER 60 STEROIDAL COMPOUNDS IN IT!!!

So what? Clinically, SPV-30 at a high dose did not cause any toxicities or problems or more rapid progression. In fact, it was no different than taking a placebo. At the 990 mg /day dose, there was some evidence of delayed progression over 18 months. But nobody ever claimed it was a cure (like Lieb does of rebounders and raw foods) nor justifies unsafe sex by pretending HIV doesn’t exist. Yet for some reason, that doesn’t raise your ire. I call that dead cold hypocrisy. In fact, I’ll bet you’re high as a kite as you wrote this post! Looks like your break with heroin wasn’t entirely complete.

Nope.I haven’t touched heroin since around 1988. Hard as it is for you to grasp, many people give up habits like that. And no, I don’t take methadone, percodan or any other drug. Just because your an obnoxious, nasty SOB doesn’t give credence to your arguments. The results of the larger study showed some slowing in progression. No it didn’t. You also said it would be published in Lancet. No it wasn’t. It remains unpublished.

I was wrong about the Lancet. However, I have the galley proofs for: Durant J, Chnatre Ph., Gonzales G, et al. Efficacy and asfety of Buxus sempervirens L. preparations (SPV30) in HIV-infected asymptomatic patients: a multicentre, randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial.  Phytomedicine. 1998;5(1):1-10.                 George M. Carter

Response:

snip Gee Martoon, "86 percent" sounds verrrry impressive! But tell me something — with a starting failure rate of 75% within the first short months for those who start these drugs — which then increases shy of 100% as viral rebound kicks in — this figure of 86% tends to whither, dry up and blow away because the fact of the matter is, I can easily claim that the 86% improved survival is NOT among those few percent who continued the drugs, but rather this number looks very much like those who tried and failed the drugs!

And elsewhere you say about the drug cocktails: "Proven?" Where is it proven? Certainly not in the quilt statistics! Definitely not in the San Francisco infection and death statistics which actually DO prove the OPPOSITE, despite Delooney’s frantic, desperate and hilarious attempts at putting the drug company "damage control" spin on the facts published in the Journal AIDS (11/97).

Now, Frod, this is what lends one to believe that you feel the drugs are worthless and primarily harmful. And you say you revere the science, yet make vague and ambiguous claims like these with only a vague reference to the litrature. Yet when queried about specifics, you weasel around and say: The reason I find it instructive is because you remain vague on your stance on the drugs. Not at all — see the DejaNews archives.

No. I’m not going to waste the time. This remains a vague response. You talk about their toxicities. All well and good. You don’t talk about their toxicities. Not good.

Absurd. I spend a great deal of time discussing the drug toxicities. But your invective all points to the conclusion that you feel people with HIV should not use them. Period. Cite the post where you hallucinated this!

I didn’t say it was on post–but your posts in the aggregate (as above) strongly suggest this. They will hasten death in your view. Yes they can, but not in my view — I base my comments on the science. Too bad you can’t.

What science? Yet you will scream that this is a misrepresentation of your beliefs. Yup! When pressed, the only thing you will suggest is low-dose protease inhibitor use. Is that correct? You’re already contradicting your earlier hysteria in this post. You know its more complicated than this and you admit here that I’ve answered it — it too is in DejaNews — better get busy!!!

It’s a simple question. Do you believe protease inhibitors have any value or not in treating HIV? If so, at what dosage and/or in what context? And by inference, that the nukes (AZT, ddI, ddC, d4T, etc.) should never be used. Is that correct? See DejaNews — the science hasn’t changed to match your hysterical rants.

Again–you evade.                 George M. Carter

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good, George, very good. Now that it has taken you over a decade to grasp that fact, perhaps you might consider the quiet message that hides in the quilts of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who trusted their doctors who were quite insistent that AZT et al had something to do with health — but now see AZT monotherapy as dangerous because they didn’t know enough about it then, but guess what? They are equally sure today that the PI cocktails have something to do with health — and they have just as much "proof" now as they did with AZT then. Hindsight can be 20-20.

Funny, mine has always been foresight — you’re the one with the magical hindsight that’s still wrong. But it was apparent at the time to many that AZT monotherapy wasn’t very hot. But the PI cocktails qualitatively work better and have much more evidence than AZT or ddC or ddI monotherapy.

Nope. More people have failed HAART than were reported to fail AZT at the 2 year mark of being the standard of care. A LOT MORE FAILURES! Your use of the term "proof" is misleading.

No, it’s not my use, it’s Delooney’s spin doctoring. Get a clue, Columba. I find it laughable that you still snivel about the FDA-SPV-30 issue.

Snivel? Hardly, I think its hysterical! I suppose we’re both laughing. I have a newsflash though: you’re the object of all the fun! The fact is, the FDA in DC apologized for the way the district office handled the situation.

Blah blah blah… instead of yapping about their "apology", why don’t you post that hilarious manic Chicken Little "the sky is falling" post that illustrates your deceptions, lies and megalomania so perfectly? Clearly, the distributor of SPV-30 made claims about the herb’s ability to mitigate disease.

Hey sleazebag! Don’t forget to mention to all the nice people that YOU were the author of the medical "claims" the distributor disseminated. What a nice scumbag you are. By law, this is illegal

YOU found out the hard way … ha ha ha ha ha!!! I warned you, but you wouldn’t listen — that’s what makes it even funnier! and puts the herb into the class of a drug.

Pat yourself on the back — not too hard though, remember, you don’t have a spine! Which is why the district office sent it’s threatening letter.

Ohhhhh!!!! "Look! A threatening letter from the FDA!" "my God, what are we supposed to do? … hey, where’s Muffy? Has anyone seen Muffy??? Now let’s go find Muffy and see what we can do to make those meanies at the FDA apologize for causing Muffy to get scared and run off!" I thought the ads were inappropriate anyway–

But Dork — you were the daddy of those lovely cure du jour testimonials that arrived at your favorite habitat, POZ. and the distributor agreed to immediately drop the ads.

Yeah, and you worked for them but there you were, Carter the big bad pantywaist ak-ti-vust – not the mentally disturbed Troglodyte who got them into hot water in the first place! But the central problem remains.

Yeah — you! To discuss effects on a disease process would be to call it a drug. Yet, for example, folic acid supplementation by expectant mothers clearly prevents neural tube defects in their children.

Another manic fly-by. Other examples abound of the ability of dietary supplements to (mostly) mitigate or (sometimes) cure disease.

Here we go … wheeeeeee! Asystem must be developed that is rigorous which would permit companies to make such claims.

Expanding into the universe of manic possibilities … wheeeee! Without necessarily having to go through a $200 million process.

We’re in the hundreds of millions now… Other countries have such a process, one of the best being Germany’s Commission E.

We’ve gone international and landed in Deutschland! Wheee! As to SPV-30 itself

And back to a soft SPV-30 landing… — there are TONS of compounds being touted as AIDS cures.

No there isn’t. Just the ones you prefer to skywrite with your broomstick. Just like Lieb claims his rebounder and a raw foods diet will cure AIDS.

No! SPV-30 is NOT "just like" ANYTHING Lieb advocated. Lieb didn’t push a KNOWN SUPPRESSOR OF THE BODY’S IL-2 PRODUCTION WITH OVER 60 STEROIDAL COMPOUNDS IN IT!!! You’re totally bananas, George — your clean break from reality and a lack of impulse control couldn’t be more obvious. In fact, I’ll bet you’re high as a kite as you wrote this post! Looks like your break with heroin wasn’t entirely complete. Most of these people are complete bullshitters

Indeed. You placed yourself in that category, and rightly so — a well-earned title indeed. (and it doesn’t surprise me for a heartbeat that you would defend Lieb.)

I don’t defend Lieb, he does that rather well on his own. Of course, who am I supposedly defending Lieb from… you? Ha! Lieb can kick your needle-tracked ass anytime!! However, I see it’s time to start wrapping up your manic spasm with the standard projection of your internal chaos onto the nearest object, man or beast. At least Arkopharma did the responsible thing. They conducted a clinical study.

Moot point. You were already busy pimping SPV-30 following your Arkopharma "scholarship" — the european vacation with round trip air fare. By the way, you never answered one question: did they fly you first class or coach? The results of the larger study showed some slowing in progression.

No it didn’t. You also said it would be published in Lancet. No it wasn’t. It remains unpublished. Your claims for the study tend to expand with your manic mood swings — or more likely, heroin/methadone sequelae. Not too impressive after all but better than placebo.

That’s your interpretation of what wasn’t published. Not good enough. I stand on my original objections which remain sustained by Arkopharma’s own reports and the biomedical literature regarding boxwood that you never bothered researching because you were too busy shilling the product that contained "secret ingredients" by employing false medical claims — all, of course, for your Arkopharma meal ticket. I hope that the company will not be overly discouraged but will look to try combinations of herbs and continuing to actually test them in a clinical setting. And that other companies follow suit.

When you come down from wherever it is heroin junkies go after they shoot up, perhaps a better place to begin the research is the basic science of immunology and the pathogenesis of this disease. You might actually realize that just "trying stuff out" on people is merely human experimentation in search of a cash cow — or, in your case, a meal ticket and a prescription for a hypnotic. At the same time, in the U.S. at least, there must be incentives created that will permit companies to produce non-patentable interventions and, based on positive clinical data, have the ability to make appropriate claims.

Off we go again … whee!!!! As to the rest of your churning dribble, go take a pill.

And we close with a bit of mindless projection: an admission of his "churning" moods and their cause, which is probably codeine, percodan or methadone (heroin junkies do have alternatives you know!) Case closed. fred

Response:

As we approach another "full" lunar moment, Martooney Delooney’s Loon-acy is in full bloom, (again Projekt Miss Inform herself, Martin Delaney, aka – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If what I promote is fraudulent, how come, in almost 20 years none of my customers have complained? Cause dead people don’t talk? Good, George, very good. Now that it has taken you over a decade to grasp that fact, perhaps you might consider the quiet message that hides in the quilts of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who trusted their doctors who were quite insistent that AZT et al had something to do with health — but now see AZT monotherapy as dangerous because they didn’t know enough about it then, but guess what? They are equally sure today that the PI cocktails have something to do with health — and they have just as much "proof" now as they did with AZT then. Quite right, Fraud – hell, they even have MORE proof about the benefit of PI cocktails than the did about AZT monotherapy!

"Proof?" Ha! Another Deloony Toon during a full moon, or "full Delunar event"! Except for the confession that the drug companies have many more stooges to pay off today than ever before. What happened to the good old days of ACTG016 when they only had to pay off a handful of buffoons while killing off a couple of dozen plalcebo-gulping fags who were gonna die anyway and, by God, were damned lucky to be in the trial in the first place? (A "blinded" trial? Surrrrreeee it was! Let’s see … who could be on A-Z-T?? Hmmm, here’s one … maybe I’ll give his real doc a call and get him to prescribe Bactrim <wink wink yeah Bactrim — the drug that has nuttin’ to do with preventing PCP <wink). [SEE ACTG016 report of 1989 for an eye-opener] Ah yes! Once again, in another psychotic fit of DeLoonacy, Martoon kicks off his cheap shoes and reaches into his tattered shoplifting bag of "science", which is always brimming with news clippings — you know, the REAL peer-reviewed "research"! Ha ha ha ha ha!!!! AIDSWEEKLY Plus; Monday, March 9, 1998 (Conference Coverage (Retrovirus): CDC:  HAART Cuts AIDS Death Risk By 86 Percent)

Oh my! Another DeLoonar eclipse of non-science and sheer nonsense! Keeps those drug company checks coming in to keep that Projekt Miss Inform "Hot Line" open, right Martoon? Martoon? Hey Martoon? I got a question here — let’s see now — if HAART is cutting the AIDS death risk by 86 percent, then why does Projekt Miss Inform need donations for a silly Hot Line? Instead of laying off your highly trained staff of science razors, why don’t you keep everything where it is and switch it over to a 900 live sex line? Look at it this way — as a sex line you’ll at least be giving something back, right? Now isn’t that a whole lot better than just fucking them over while YOU and YOUR staff are the ones "getting off"? summarizes CDC statistics based on 26,810 PERSON-YEARS (18,345 people) and finds that among people who have already progressed to AIDS, those receiving a protease inhibitor as part of triple-drug antiretroviral therapy have an 86 percent lower risk of death than those who received NO THERAPY!

Gee Martoon, "86 percent" sounds verrrry impressive! But tell me something — with a starting failure rate of 75% within the first short months for those who start these drugs — which then increases shy of 100% as viral rebound kicks in — this figure of 86% tends to whither, dry up and blow away because the fact of the matter is, I can easily claim that the 86% improved survival is NOT among those few percent who continued the drugs, but rather this number looks very much like those who tried and failed the drugs! (CDC’s Adult Spectrum of Disease (ARD) Project, presented at the 5th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections, held February 1-5, 1998, in Chicago, Illinois.)

Nice try. It’s bullshit, of course. That’s why Martoon uses news clippings — I mean, why waste valuable time on peer review and stupid "science" when we KNOW how these drugs have made AIDS a thing of the past and are "saving lives"? Also, they found that there’s almost a two-thirds lower risk of death versus those who received monotherapy with a single reverse-transcriptase inhibitor.

Duh. Who cares if more people die in Auschwitz than Buchenwald? What Delooney Toon deliberately fails to consider is the embarassing fact that NO epidemic disease is 100% fatal! However, you won’t find a doctor or a drug "activist" admitting that — especially the Deloonatics. Ebola, for example, was nearly 100% fatal a decade ago. Now, WITHOUT "antiviral" immune suppressors, the survival rate is approaching 40%! Of course, if you gave immunosuppressive "antivirals" to those who break out with Ebola, you would see the death rate go back to nearly 100%. Long-term non-progressors are increasing in numbers — of course as long as they don’t use the drugs for their asymptomatic "condition", because the single thing this group has in common is NO ANTIVIRAL DRUG USE!!! Martoon — don’t you know any LTNPs? I know plenty of asymptomatics infected over 15 years ago — no drugs because no need — no signs of immune suppression and no interventions to make immune suppression and progressive disease a reality! According to what you and the doctors say, those guys should have been dead long ago! But they aren’t — and you and the doctors simply put their existence out of your minds because you are all collectively out of your minds. Indeed, Deloonatics All! And here’s yet another study which showed 62 percent lower risk of death for even monotherapy !

Sure it did, Martooney. And the DeLunar surface is made of swiss cheese. One more question: where’s the peer-reviewed report in the biomedical literature ? — or are you so busy scooping up drug company cash that you don’t have the time to even care? fred

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If what I promote is fraudulent, how come, in almost 20 years none of my customers have complained? Cause dead people don’t talk? Good, George, very good. Now that it has taken you over a decade to grasp that fact, perhaps you might consider the quiet message that hides in the quilts of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who trusted their doctors who were quite insistent that AZT et al had something to do with health — but now see AZT monotherapy as dangerous because they didn’t know enough about it then, but guess what? They are equally sure today that the PI cocktails have something to do with health — and they have just as much "proof" now as they did with AZT then.

Quite right, Fraud – hell, they even have MORE proof about the benefit of PI cocktails than the did about AZT monotherapy! AIDSWEEKLY Plus; Monday, March 9, 1998 (Conference Coverage (Retrovirus): CDC:  HAART Cuts AIDS Death Risk By 86 Percent) summarizes CDC statistics based on 26,810 PERSON-YEARS (18,345 people) and finds that among people who have already progressed to AIDS, those receiving a protease inhibitor as part of triple-drug antiretroviral therapy have an 86 percent lower risk of death than those who received NO THERAPY! (CDC’s Adult Spectrum of Disease (ARD) Project, presented at the 5th Conference on Retroviruses and Opportunistic Infections, held February 1-5, 1998, in Chicago, Illinois.) Also, they found that there’s almost a two-thirds lower risk of death versus those who received monotherapy with a single reverse-transcriptase inhibitor. And here’s yet another study which showed 62 percent lower risk of death for even monotherapy !

Response:

Good, George, very good. Now that it has taken you over a decade to grasp that fact, perhaps you might consider the quiet message that hides in the quilts of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who trusted their doctors who were quite insistent that AZT et al had something to do with health — but now see AZT monotherapy as dangerous because they didn’t know enough about it then, but guess what? They are equally sure today that the PI cocktails have something to do with health — and they have just as much "proof" now as they did with AZT then.

Hindsight can be 20-20. But it was apparent at the time to many that AZT monotherapy wasn’t very hot. But the PI cocktails qualitatively work better and have much more evidence than AZT or ddC or ddI monotherapy. Your use of the term "proof" is misleading. I find it laughable that you still snivel about the FDA-SPV-30 issue. The fact is, the FDA in DC apologized for the way the district office handled the situation. Clearly, the distributor of SPV-30 made claims about the herb’s ability to mitigate disease. By law, this is illegal and puts the herb into the class of a drug. Which is why the district office sent it’s threatening letter. I thought the ads were inappropriate anyway–and the distributor agreed to immediately drop the ads. But the central problem remains. At the moment, anything that falls into the category of a dietary supplement can only discuss its ability to affect body structure/function. To discuss effects on a disease process would be to call it a drug. Yet, for example, folic acid supplementation by expectant mothers clearly prevents neural tube defects in their children. Other examples abound of the ability of dietary supplements to (mostly) mitigate or (sometimes) cure disease. Asystem must be developed that is rigorous which would permit companies to make such claims. Without necessarily having to go through a $200 million process. Other countries have such a process, one of the best being Germany’s Commission E. As to SPV-30 itself–there are TONS of compounds being touted as AIDS cures. Just like Lieb claims his rebounder and a raw foods diet will cure AIDS. Most of these people are complete bullshitters (and it doesn’t surprise me for a heartbeat that you would defend Lieb.) At least Arkopharma did the responsible thing. They conducted a clinical study. The results of the larger study showed some slowing in progression. Not too impressive after all but better than placebo. I hope that the company will not be overly discouraged but will look to try combinations of herbs and continuing to actually test them in a clinical setting. And that other companies follow suit. At the same time, in the U.S. at least, there must be incentives created that will permit companies to produce non-patentable interventions and, based on positive clinical data, have the ability to make appropriate claims. As to the rest of your churning dribble, go take a pill.                 George M. Carter

Response:

If what I promote is fraudulent, how come, in almost 20 years none of my customers have complained? Cause dead people don’t talk?

Good, George, very good. Now that it has taken you over a decade to grasp that fact, perhaps you might consider the quiet message that hides in the quilts of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who trusted their doctors who were quite insistent that AZT et al had something to do with health — but now see AZT monotherapy as dangerous because they didn’t know enough about it then, but guess what? They are equally sure today that the PI cocktails have something to do with health — and they have just as much "proof" now as they did with AZT then. Why is it only screaming Mimis like you, who have never tried rebounding or Natural Hygiene, voice objections? Because you’re a deluded liar?

Classic psychological projection from perhaps the most prolific pathological liar stalking the newsgroups dealing with AIDS. Carter is a textbook psychopath who charms and manipulates — when unmasked, he comes unglued. If you weren’t such a worthless piece of shit, I would take you court for libel, but you can’t get blood from a stone.  

Right on Ed!!! Carter is a supreme sleazeball who needs to have his miserable ass subpoenaed and dragged into court but the short-and-curlies — if I resided in New York City, I would have had Mimi Carter put in jail where she belongs (for Carter, however, something tells me that she would be in heaven with all those real men). Otherwise, I would have personally kicked Carter’s bribe-begging, quack-pushing, heroin-shooting, lie-telling narrow ass a long time ago. By the way, do you know anyone named "Guido"? I’d suggest you publicly apologize for your unfounded accusation.  If you don’t eat those words, you might find yourself eating your teeth!

Yes! I’ve forwarded your private email and this threatening comment to yuo will be the FDA Fraud Task Force.                 George M. Carter

And believe me, Carter knows the FDA fraud boys well — he’s the reason they pulled SPV-30 last year for false medical claims — Carter misrepresented himself before the FDA as a member of ACT UP New York while fraudulently acting in that capacity as an agent for DAAIR and Arkopharma France. Carter is a psychopath — he operates on the premise that if you’re stupid enough to believe him, then you deserve what happens to you. Ed, Carter will lie like a rug to the FDA — please have them give me a call if they have any questions about his veracity — I’ve got loads of evidence that might interest them in Carter’s self-promotionals and quack sales schemes — including the fraudulent misrepresentations he made to FDA representatives. In fact, there is evidence to suggest that "Carter" isn’t even his true name at all, so if I were you, perhaps a call to the FBI might be in order to see if "Carter" is a refugee from justice — perhaps Pennsylvania is a good place to start! fred

Response:

It is different from showmanbizness and the type of fraud Lieb perpetuates. If what I promote is fraudulent, how come, in almost 20 years none of my customers have complained?  

Because they’re probably all DEAD !

Response:

It is different from showmanbizness and the type of fraud Lieb perpetuates. If what I promote is fraudulent, how come, in almost 20 years none of my customers have complained?  

Cause dead people don’t talk? How do you explain the fact that most of my business comes from referrals from more-than-satisfied customers?  Why is it only screaming Mimis like you, who have never tried rebounding or Natural Hygiene, voice objections?

Because you’re a deluded liar? If you weren’t such a worthless piece of shit, I would take you court for libel, but you can’t get blood from a stone.  I’d suggest you publicly apologize for your unfounded accusation.  If you don’t eat those words, you might find yourself eating your teeth!

I’ve forwarded your private email and this threatening comment to yuo will be the FDA Fraud Task Force.                 George M. Carter

Response:

It is different from showmanbizness and the type of fraud Lieb perpetuates.

If what I promote is fraudulent, how come, in almost 20 years none of my customers have complained?  How do you explain the fact that most of my business comes from referrals from more-than-satisfied customers?  Why is it only screaming Mimis like you, who have never tried rebounding or Natural Hygiene, voice objections? If you weren’t such a worthless piece of shit, I would take you court for libel, but you can’t get blood from a stone.  I’d suggest you publicly apologize for your unfounded accusation.  If you don’t eat those words, you might find yourself eating your teeth! Edward Lieb Want to learn the greatest health "secret" of all? Check out my web page: http://members.aol.com/HelthBound or write for information by return e-mail.

Response:

CoHR meets every Monday, 7:30 p.m. at Planet Health, 319 E. 9th Street.

Gee, how come you’re not meeting at the Lesbian and Gay Community Center any more, Ed?  Did they finally catch on to their resident shaman? WallyB

Response:

I have chosen to observe, and evaluate the success rate of alternative medicine in AIDS patients, compared to that of regular medicine on AIDS patients.  I was only wondering if anybody had any news about alternative, or complementary medicines for AIDS treatment, and if there are any offices in New York City for me to visit. –

Every Wednesday at 8pm you can attend a HEAL meeting and learn how hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people have stayed healthy and/or regained their health with no medical intervention.  HEAL (Health Education AIDS Liaison) was founded in 1982 and is the oldest alternative AIDS organization.  With chapters in dozens of cities around the world it is also the fastest growing.  An international HEAL conference is being held in Toronto next month.  You might be interested in that as well. The New York chapter of HEAL meets every Wednesday at the Lesbian and Gay Community Center, 208 W. 13th Street. Another New York group you might interested in, a Natural Hygiene support group called CoHR (Coalition for Health Reeducation) has had close to 100% success with former AIDS victims.  CoHR meets every Monday, 7:30 p.m. at Planet Health, 319 E. 9th Street. Edward Lieb Want to learn the greatest health "secret" of all? Check out my web page: http://members.aol.com/HelthBound or write for information by return e-mail.

Response:

CoHR meets every Monday, 7:30 p.m. at Planet Health, 319 E. 9th Street. Gee, how come you’re not meeting at the Lesbian and Gay Community Center any more, Ed?  Did they finally catch on to their resident shaman? WallyB

I think WackyWally meant to say "shawman", but hey, who am I to argue with the intelligencia of patients… Only your "complex" immune system knows for sure… Buck up.  Eat brown rice! Chinadoc

Response:

Wally– Gee, how come you’re not meeting at the Lesbian and Gay Community Center any more, Ed?  Did they finally catch on to their resident shaman?

In my view, shamanism has redeeming value. Check out books by Stanley Krippner (a truly remarkable man). It’s truly fascinating stuff. I’m not saying one should rely on shamanistic approaches for HIV–but they have lots to offer and are found in cultures from all over the Americas, Africa, Asia, Siberia.  I believe there is much to be said for addressing health at a number of different levels–physical, emotional, psychic or spiritual (however one may interpret those terms.) Indeed, Shaman Pharamceuticals–focusing as ever on the drug-side of health because that’s a tangible, saleable item–has botanists and researchers in the field interviewing shamans and collecting samples from all over the world. It is different from showmanbizness and the type of fraud Lieb perpetuates.                 George M. Carter

Response:

I have chosen to observe, and evaluate the success rate of alternative medicine in AIDS patients, compared to that of regular medicine on AIDS patients.  I  was only wondering if anybody had any news about alternative, or complementary medicines for AIDS treatment Every Wednesday at 8pm you can attend a HEAL meeting and learn how hundreds (perhaps thousands) of people have stayed healthy and/or regained their health with no medical intervention.  

On Sunday you can hear the angels say, "you are forgeiven" and cured… however, listening to the diatribe of incontinent and incompetent nincompoops you would think you would gain extra indulgence… However, you are doing just fine. Praise God.  There are cures coming down the pipeline. But how will you know?   Just ask them who sent them? Best of luck always, Charlie "Life and love are just a membrane that reproduces."                                     Pandoc

Response:

I have to do a fieldwork project for school.  I am in a seven year medical program in New York City.  The project is for a medical anthropology class. I  have chosen to observe, and evaluate the success rate of alternative medicine  in AIDS patients, compared to that of regular medicine on AIDS patients.  I  was only wondering if anybody had any news about alternative, or complementary medicines for AIDS treatment, and if there are any offices in New York City for me to visit.

Response:

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